OLX Part 3. Tata Zest AMT D.

[anupmathur]

Jeet, I don't see any significant problem with AMT in the hills. You can always shift to manual mode to go up steep inclines in first gear, though that might not be called for. Judicious use of the hand-brake before starting on a gradient helps a lot. Do not dis-engage the hand brake till you feel the car rearing to move under some accelerator input. On steep gradients my guess is that the car will stay in first gear and not shift up on auto.
While I have not taken my Celerio to the hills (I use the Mobilio) I know for a fact that Maruti tests its cars quite rigorously in the hills. I presume Tata does the same.

The Celerio manual mode shifts down automatically when needed but never shifts up on its own. That is done manually. Useful feature to use engine braking on descents. If you put the car in first gear during a descent it will stay in first till you decide to shift to second. Now, in second gear, if you were to apply brakes to decelerate, the car will automatically shift down to first at some point and will stay in that till you manually shift up to second.

I wouldn't say the AMT has a mind of its own; rather it has a different logic from a regular auto-box. This logic wouldn't be immediately obvious to a casual driver, only to an enthusiast.

 

[jeetcp]

Yes Zack, Anup Sir,

The bigger problem is "Stop and Go", "Start on Incline", "Slush".
2nd gear onwards AMT has no problem. Moves like an MT.

Mine has no hill hold. Car needs you to use Hand brake while starting. That works, same as MT, but for AMT we need to put more efforts and precision.

In high gradients, where I could take MT car in 2nd gear, I guess AMT will need to be kept in Manual mode in high RPM in 1st gear. Just to prevent gearbox getting upshifting too early and later downshifting if you happen to reduce speed a bit.

With MT I have have faced "Smoking Clutch" situations a few times on extreme steep inclines having some traffic. I would never want to be slipping or smoking the clutch on AMT. There are good number of cars reporting AMT issues or early clutch wear on forums.
I think with some Patience, Hill start situation can be addressed.

Slush / Loose traction is something which I have to simulate to know how AMT feels. I am expecting a lot of wheel spin. Jalori calling?

Initial response of AMT is sensitive to wheel feedback. To give you an idea, 34PSI is recommended in my car. If she has say 26, the stop and go response becomes very lethargic, much worse than you will feel in MT.

The upsides I see in this car are: Very short 1st gear, very tractable torque in 1, 2 gear.

Coming to AMT logic, yes it is different. Few observations:
1) Gear shifts are slow, delayed in cold engine. Initial 3-4 minutes are not so smooth. May be Diesel car thing because for petrol MT, the engine generally revs harder to gain heat.
I dont know if gearbox Oil temperature is a factor here or the engine temperature?

2) Upshifting and Downshifting RPM are differently tunes for each gear.
1>2 at 2200 or above
2>3 at 2200
..
4>5 at as early as 1900 sometimes.

2>1 Will be delayed as much as possible. She can crawl at 800RMP. Sometimes lower.
3>2 as low as 900 rpm.
..
5>4 will always downshift at 1600 rmp.

3) Above equation changes a lot under high load, or pushing the accelerator pedal too much.
Adaptiveness range is much more flexible in Sports mode.

4) Above RPM range for downshifting is different for Manual mode. She is much more impatient to downshift in manual mode.

Other observation: Gearshift in Auto mode are slow, takes almost half second to full second to shift. But in Manual mode, shift is super fast, the lag is not felt much. I am guessing this is not good for life of clutch. I get a feeling that Auto mode is safer from Wear and Tear perspective.

Reversing an AMT is a pain, at least on Zest. Reverse speed is too much and I would want her to slip the clutch more while reversing and she is super aggressive, sometimes like almost jumping. I do not feel this a safe behavior for Less experienced drivers. The very people who are supposed to own AMT.

 

[anupmathur]

Jeet, I see, from what you have posted, that there are significant differences in the way the AMT has been implemented by various manufacturers. Also, maybe the petrol versus diesel factor makes some difference in how the AMT ought to be implemented? I'm not sure that our manufacturers, specifically the 'desi' ones, have got it quite right. I do recall Silent Soul also complaining about his AMT Mahindra.

 

[SachinOnTop]

@jeetcp :
Another AMT owner is here to help you understand the Tata AMTs!

My Tiago AMT (P) also gave me a restless night before we went ahead for the Lansdowne trip recently. The only concern was it being my first ever experience of an AMT in hills. Those who went to Lansdowne know that some stretches are not so good and some of them are pretty challenging.

Enroute a temple, I encountered a steep descent going through a crowded market with a narrow patch in between called road. My first reaction was how will I come up from it! Well, the Manual mode surprised me and performed brilliantly.

Engine braking in first gear was awesome. For couple of seconds I removed my foot from pedals and it slowly went down in a controlled manner. While coming back, we faced a traffic jam on the same steep stretch! It managed perfectly with multiple stop-n-go movements and few reverses as well. It took me about 10 minutes to cross that 250 meters of steep incline, and those were the most tensed yet enjoyable moments with an AMT car.

AMT does have its mind of its own, but only for first few days. After that it depends on 'your' potential of adjusting with a new technology. Now after using it for over 6 months, I can push it in "red-light drags mode" even in City Auto mode. I don't remember when I last used the Sports mode!

For me Auto mode works flawlessly and Manual takes care of those challenging moments.

P.S.:
I had to mention here that during "stop-n-go-n-stop" instances (in front and reverse too) where you have to gather speed instantly and then brake hard immediately; you'll be surprised to see that it doesnot stops as usual! The brake pedal feel goes awry and stopping distance increases significantly.
I checked it on several other AMT equipped Tiagos and Tigors at ASS, and all felt same.

 

[deepam]

Yes Zack, Anup Sir,

The bigger problem is "Stop and Go", "Start on Incline", "Slush".
2nd gear onwards AMT has no problem. Moves like an MT.

Mine has no hill hold. Car needs you to use Hand brake while starting. That works, same as MT, but for AMT we need to put more efforts and precision.

In high gradients, where I could take MT car in 2nd gear, I guess AMT will need to be kept in Manual mode in high RPM in 1st gear. Just to prevent gearbox getting upshifting too early and later downshifting if you happen to reduce speed a bit.

With MT I have have faced "Smoking Clutch" situations a few times on extreme steep inclines having some traffic. I would never want to be slipping or smoking the clutch on AMT. There are good number of cars reporting AMT issues or early clutch wear on forums.
I think with some Patience, Hill start situation can be addressed.

Slush / Loose traction is something which I have to simulate to know how AMT feels. I am expecting a lot of wheel spin. Jalori calling?

Initial response of AMT is sensitive to wheel feedback. To give you an idea, 34PSI is recommended in my car. If she has say 26, the stop and go response becomes very lethargic, much worse than you will feel in MT.

The upsides I see in this car are: Very short 1st gear, very tractable torque in 1, 2 gear.

Coming to AMT logic, yes it is different. Few observations:
1) Gear shifts are slow, delayed in cold engine. Initial 3-4 minutes are not so smooth. May be Diesel car thing because for petrol MT, the engine generally revs harder to gain heat.
I dont know if gearbox Oil temperature is a factor here or the engine temperature?

2) Upshifting and Downshifting RPM are differently tunes for each gear.
1>2 at 2200 or above
2>3 at 2200
..
4>5 at as early as 1900 sometimes.

2>1 Will be delayed as much as possible. She can crawl at 800RMP. Sometimes lower.
3>2 as low as 900 rpm.
..
5>4 will always downshift at 1600 rmp.

3) Above equation changes a lot under high load, or pushing the accelerator pedal too much.
Adaptiveness range is much more flexible in Sports mode.

4) Above RPM range for downshifting is different for Manual mode. She is much more impatient to downshift in manual mode.

Other observation: Gearshift in Auto mode are slow, takes almost half second to full second to shift. But in Manual mode, shift is super fast, the lag is not felt much. I am guessing this is not good for life of clutch. I get a feeling that Auto mode is safer from Wear and Tear perspective.

Reversing an AMT is a pain, at least on Zest. Reverse speed is too much and I would want her to slip the clutch more while reversing and she is super aggressive, sometimes like almost jumping. I do not feel this a safe behavior for Less experienced drivers. The very people who are supposed to own AMT.

++++++++++++++
Jeet,
I believe 2 factors are required to get adjusted to:

1. Diesel Engine [Per my memory you are a predominantly driven Petrol cars, Diesels are slightly different. I recommend never to start Diesel Cars in 2nd gear even if they are capable. Nobody will give you a price or award for starting in second gear. Never ever I need to do half clutch in Diesel].
2. Diesel Engine are heavier and I do not recommend to do half clutch. Just shift to appropriate gear and then move. It comes with a practice and getting used to. Even in steep inclines, I have taken the car without half clutch.

For you it is AMT, so no issues - on MT even I do not recommend keeping foot on the clutch pedal. I hate when somebody keeps the foot on clutch and drive.

Gear Shift patterns and my view:

1. AMT up gear shifts [1 to 4] - I think they are are programmed to behave same across - city and highway driving. This is the fact to take the advantage of Turbo. So the RPM is in the range of 2000-2200.
   1. In highway driving in variably my observation is I shift gears in this range 2000-2200 rpm.
   2. In city driving I shift gears around the range of 1200-1500 rpm, rarely go upto 2000 rpm.
2. AMT down gear shifts [4 to 1], in city I have gone down to 900-1000 rpm before I shift to higher gear. This without losing the required momentum.
3. Even in stop go city traffic in an incline - I never do half clutch - shift to the required gear and allow the car to move.

Just enjoy the car and allow it to give freedom of enjoying the driving experience.
Do not worry much as Sachin has shared above just enjoy the drive.

 

[deepam]

@jeetcp :
Another AMT owner is here to help you understand the Tata AMTs!



P.S.:
I had to mention here that during "stop-n-go-n-stop" instances (in front and reverse too) where you have to gather speed instantly and then brake hard immediately; you'll be surprised to see that it doesnot stops as usual! The brake pedal feel goes awry and stopping distance increases significantly.
I checked it on several other AMT equipped Tiagos and Tigors at ASS, and all felt same.

--------
The sense you get to take longer time to stop is the clutch is programmed to get engaged at the later time. One can simulate this in Manual.

 

[zack2137]

Wow, what diverse range of opinions. Another perspective here from a diesel driver but TC automatic instead of AMT.

My car doesn't have hill hold but on "D" mode, the engine has enough torque to hold the vehicle from crawling back. I've been to Ramgarh and Dharamshala and there were some nasty stretches but the acceleration was rapid and the car didn't upshift as early as it would have otherwise. No half clutching, no rolling back. I believe your car should do fine too. But the problem begins where there is slush and you need initial torque on an incline. Even if you use it on MT and press the A pedal hard, the car will half-clutch. But that would apply to any vehicle, not just AMT, right?

Having said that, we found a Honda City near Gramphoo while on our way to Chandratal from Manali. If the City can make, so can Zest. You just gotta be careful

Other observation: Gearshift in Auto mode are slow, takes almost half second to full second to shift. But in Manual mode, shift is super fast, the lag is not felt much. I am guessing this is not good for life of clutch. I get a feeling that Auto mode is safer from Wear and Tear perspective.

My experience is quite the opposite. In manual mode, the lever is very smooth but the gearbox responds half a second later or so. In AT mode, it's so fluid you don't even realize before you're cruising in 6th.

 

[jeetcp]

Its good know your story.
I was underestimating Manual mode. Have been driving in Manual since yesterday and now it is more usable.

Lansdwone is a good example to compare. Glad to know the observations. I will be relaxed now.
Does Tiago Creep forward when you take foot off Brake? Zest does not, you have to rev at least 1200 or so and then gear engages.
I think all Maruti AMT does creep.

And the "stop-n-go-n-stop" thing you mentioned in P.S., it happens in Zest too sometimes and I am sure will happen in All AMTs.
Because, it is Not an AT, it is "Auto Manual Transmission". The actuators are not fast enough to Disengage-Engage-Disengage the gear. So essentially you are breaking and engine is trying to push forward at same time. ECU realizes it after a second and it Dis-Engages the clutch.
This becomes all OK once one has spend few days driving the AMT. My wife and BIL both complained on their 1st drive in bumper-to-bumper drive that car stopped few inches Ahead of where they wanted it to.

All in all I say, AMT is good and while people spend months learning to operate an MT clutch, it takes few days for AMT.

@jeetcp :
Another AMT owner is here to help you understand the Tata AMTs!

My Tiago AMT (P) also gave me a restless night before we went ahead for the Lansdowne trip recently. The only concern was it being my first ever experience of an AMT in hills. Those who went to Lansdowne know that some stretches are not so good and some of them are pretty challenging.

Enroute a temple, I encountered a steep descent going through a crowded market with a narrow patch in between called road. My first reaction was how will I come up from it! Well, the Manual mode surprised me and performed brilliantly.

Engine braking in first gear was awesome. For couple of seconds I removed my foot from pedals and it slowly went down in a controlled manner. While coming back, we faced a traffic jam on the same steep stretch! It managed perfectly with multiple stop-n-go movements and few reverses as well. It took me about 10 minutes to cross that 250 meters of steep incline, and those were the most tensed yet enjoyable moments with an AMT car.

AMT does have its mind of its own, but only for first few days. After that it depends on 'your' potential of adjusting with a new technology. Now after using it for over 6 months, I can push it in "red-light drags mode" even in City Auto mode. I don't remember when I last used the Sports mode!

For me Auto mode works flawlessly and Manual takes care of those challenging moments.

P.S.:
I had to mention here that during "stop-n-go-n-stop" instances (in front and reverse too) where you have to gather speed instantly and then brake hard immediately; you'll be surprised to see that it doesnot stops as usual! The brake pedal feel goes awry and stopping distance increases significantly.
I checked it on several other AMT equipped Tiagos and Tigors at ASS, and all felt same.

 

[jeetcp]

7000km to last service. I should have cleaned the Air filter earlier.

Opened the 3 bolts with 8mm T spanner. Easy task.

The bottom fabric kind on material was full of black dust and particle. Tapped a few times. Got better.

Did not feel much difference in driving. But FE seems to have gone but better.

Getting 20+ for office commute in off hours in Noida. Not bad. I seem to be gaining 1kmpl after filter cleaning. Or it could be all psychological.

Sent from my Redmi 4 using Tapatalk

 

[SachinOnTop]

Does Tiago Creep forward when you take foot off Brake? Zest does not, you have to rev at least 1200 or so and then gear engages.

Yes, it does creep ahead on plains. A slight incline and it's of no use!